Treasure Gained (Session 41: 1/21/15):
Party Treasure:
1) 600gp from Peter Thorel
2) Letter of credit from bargemen worth 1000gp (doesn’t count for xp)
Individual Treasure (Can be shared or not):
1) Ashton received 2,000gp from Thorel for enslavement
2) Finklemur ID’d a protection from magic scroll; worth 1500xp if used
#session_loot
This is where I am unclear. In my basic D&D gaming days, the 1,500 gets split when the item leaves the dungeon safe in the survivors hands. Since we didn’t sell the scroll, do we divvy the 1500 xp among ourselves?
The DMG (pg. 85) says, “All items (including magic) or creatures sold for gold pieces prior to the awarding of experience points for an adventure must be considered as treasure taken, and the gold pieces received for the sale add to the total treasure taken. (Those magic items not sold gain only a relatively small amount of experience points, for their value is in their usage.)”
Our campaign doesn’t have easily identifiable “adventures” and I’ve been lenient in terms of letting the party decide later if magic items are for selling or keeping. We could decide that anytime the party doesn’t immediately sell magic treasure they lose the ability to get the gold piece value in experience and must take the use xp value (whether or not they subsequently sell the item). Right now, you can defer the decision until the point of sale or use. What does the group prefer?
Your honor, if it pleases the court allow me to address the jury:
Here’s my take on these situation – Never believed in a MARKET for magical items. No doubt our chosen RPG, by design, is awash in a tsunami of magical items. But if something is MAGICAL, it should never be the same as common commodities like bacon, diner plates and felt hats. I agree for economical comparison magical items should have a monetary value but that doesn’t mean a character should ever have a conversation in a store that includes “What? This sword hits 10% more than any other in your shop, it’s worth at least 7,000 gp”
1. A sword should never be described in terms of hit probability; and 2. Where is this store that has 7,000 gp laying about? That’s 700 pounds of gold! “Deal, will you be taking your money in sacks or wagon loads? How about we go outside and hire about 20 street urchins to help you?”
I do expect a deal to go down this way – “You are ready Finkelmur. After a week under my tutelage, you will have all the power of a Magician. My price is that wonderful broom you flew in on.” OR ” You have it! My grandfather’s horn, here is your reward – a cauldron of gold!. Let’s see you get that out the front door!”
So what I am proposing is magical items are treasure and we only get the XP value along with the other treasure (gems, money, jewelry, etc.) when its ours (taken our of the dungeon/lair) unless its for a monetary reward/bounty. (Of course, if we keep an item then learn that there is a reward for it, and hand it over, then we should get the difference).
I also feel that the same applies to gems, jewelry, furniture, etc. Haggling over price is not adventuring, its negotiation. The adventure is defeating a nest of giant beavers, swimming in murky water to find the entrance to their lair and rummaging about in the dark to find a jewel encrusted over sized holy symbol. Why should the paladin get less xp for donating it vs the magic-user who negotiates in good faith for a fair reward? They both did the same work to get it. The only difference should be a fatter wallet.
I agree that there is not a stable magical economy, but there are certainly collectors (tinkerers, for instance) and wizards willing to buy those rare treasures recovered from dungeons. As you saw with Parnel Folet, there is an informal network of buyers eager to make a deal (although not always a fair or legal one). To your other points:
I haven’t told anyone the bonus of their weapons that I can recollect (I believe the group has inferred the bonuses on the weapons they have, which isn’t too hard when everything is rolled in the open). Payment, of course, doesn’t need to be in gold pieces — gems are much more compact. On the other hand, even the most cosmopolitan merchants are only going to have one or two chances in their entire lives to purchase something magical; it might be worth mortgaging their business or emptying their coffers to scrounge up the gold needed. Trading items for training, of course, is not a bad idea — no GP or XP for the item in question in that case.
I’m not completely opposed to allowing you to have the XP value of items recovered and taking the difference later if the party sells it. I am also open to the party just deciding immediately if something is for sale or use after recovery (you do usually have a good idea of whether something is worth keeping even before identification/appraisal).
You’re free not to haggle — just take the first offer and hope your reaction roll was good. Haggling, though, is not particularly onerous and usually involves nothing more than a counter-offer + charisma check (made easier if you have an established relationship with a merchant — Roland in Midmark or Philip Vigore, for example). I suggest appraising gems/jewelry before donation if the xp reward is important to you (our former paladin actually could appraise gems based on his background skills) — although selling such baubles is usually necessary anyway to ensure an equal split of the treasure among the party.
One other thing I forgot to address: deferring the award of XP for magic items actually mitigates one of the downsides of requiring training to advance a level. Right now, if Chuq recovered a magic item, he would receive nothing for it since he still needs to train to third level and cannot gain any more XP (outside of meta rewards). Under the current dispensation, though, he could hold onto the item (neither using nor selling it) until after training and then enjoy the full reward.
Wasn’t aware we were following the No XP until training rule, since it never came up with Thorfus and Axel while those two were waiting to train.
Need to update my records to show Chuq only has 4,751 (3rd lvl threshold) + meta rewards, correct?
Please clarify : Chuq passed the 3rd LVL XP threshold from Session 40. Does he only keep enough of that Session XP awards to reach 4,751 OR does he get all the XP awarded from that session?
Ignoring Chuq’s situation for a moment – let’s suppose Angry Jack had not returned or will leave the party in the future. Doesn’t it seem silly that he only gets his share whenever a Starchie Boy randomly (from his point of view) uses those items?
See what I am getting at? We all saw what Angry Jack did that day. Surviving all those rounds by himself definitely taught his character more about being a fighter, than waiting on someone else to take a drink or walk through a door.
I think Larry would disagree about the rule never coming up before — Thorfus had qualified for fourth level before leaving to explore the kobold caves (and perhaps Axel, as well). I have some errands to run now, but will get back to you this evening about the other questions — you do raise a good point about Angry Jack, though.
Okay, back: We’ve been playing with the DMG rule that you get the entire amount of experience awarded when it takes you over the minimum for next level. For example, if you sold a gem (for simplicity, we’ll say it’s personal treasure) worth 3,000GP and only needed 400XP to level, you still get the entire 3,000XP for the sale. This would apply to any bulk XP award. You are correct that Chuq would have whatever his total was after the XP award that took him over the minimum + meta rewards for summaries, etc.
The example of Angry Jack’s contribution to the Quickling battle is decisive for me in regards to magic item experience. The party can take the ‘use’ experience for a magic item immediately and we will just subtract that from the sale price if you decide to get rid of the item later on. Of course, there is the issue of magic items that belong to an individual versus those belonging to the party as a whole (I purposefully avoided bringing this up earlier in order to keep things straight-forward). My read of the DMG is that magic items typically belong to an individual, hence the protracted consideration of how to offset them when dividing a treasure haul. I can see that some items, like the instant fortress, are communal in nature (i.e., anyone can use it and it is reusable); still, something like the protection scroll in the original post seems more like an individual’s possession (i.e., only one person gets to read the scroll or only one person typically wields a particular weapon).
Damn, lost my rebuttal when I clicked in the wrong place. I’ll get wordy tomorrow if I have the time but to summarize – how treasure is divided is ONLY decided by the players, whereas XP awards for TREASURE TAKEN is divided among the survivors (1/2 share for henchman) evenly AT THE END OF THE ADVENTURE (need italics man).
That does make sense – I will double-check the DMG tomorrow, but it’s likely I was remembering that section incorrectly.
Okay, so the experience sections of the DMG/PHB don’t talk about division issues — it only comes up in the PHB’s adventuring advice and DMG henchman sections in terms of dividing loot and not experience. Based on that silence, I’m convinced that experience for magic items kept should be divided evenly among the whole party.
Here’s what we will do: All party members will receive equal shares of experience for any magic items recovered during a session based on the ‘use’ xp value (assuming they can earn xp). The party can later decide if they want to sell it and, if they do, whether it is being sold by the party or an individual. If sold by the party, everyone will get the sale experience minus the use experience; if it is being sold by an individual, that individual will get the sale experience minus the total use experience (not just the individual’s share of that use xp).
While I’m glad we’ve hashed this stuff out, I think the topic is probably ready to be put to bed. I will write and post an addendum to the house rules this afternoon formalizing these G+ comments/clarifications.
Good morning John & everyone.
I knew that Axel and Thorfus needed cash to advance but hadn’t realized they also weren’t earning any x.p. during our time in Vargen. My mistake. I will correct Chuq’s records once you have ruled on x.p. awards for “Treasure Taken”.
Reading page 85 of the DMG only :
At the top, the first paragraph states : “How treasure id divided is actually in the realm of player decision” then goes on to discuss dividing x.p. for SLAIN MONSTERS. Which is divided evenly among the survivors with the exception of Monster slain single-handedly.
Next is EXPERIENCE VALUE OF TREASURE TAKEN :
“Treasure must be physically taken out of the dungeon or lair… to be counted for x.p.”
“All items (INCLUDING MAGIC) or creatures sold for g.p. PRIOR to the awarding of x.p. for an adventure must be considered as TREASURE TAKEN…magic items not sold…small amount of x.p…VALUE is in…usage”
Treasure Taken = physically removed out of the dungeon or lair
All items = furniture, jewelry, furs, gems, antiques, books, maps, cutlery and MAGIC ITEMS
Not sold = lower x.p. award than selling”extrinsic value” because “intrinsic” VALUE (not x.p.) is in utilization in the future to defeat monsters and find treasure.
Since x.p. for slaying monsters is evenly divided among survivors, it can be implied the same for Treasure Taken. Note that it doesn’t explicitly state that in 1979 but it does later in the 1980 and 1984 red book D&D DMGs.
Page 121 (DMG) restates the x.p. value of keeping vs selling in paragraph 3. It also has an explanation of the x.p. and sell value of scrolls that you seem to be applying to all magic items. :
“Experience Point (x.p.) Value:
Awarded only to characters who can use the spell(s); the award should be 100 x.p. per spell level. PROTECTION scrolls are noted as to x.p. value on the table itself.
Gold Piece (g.p.) Sale Value:
Any scroll can be sold in the ‘open market’ for three times its x.p. value. PROTECTION scrolls sell for five time x.p. value.”
This language is necessary because 1. the table does not have x.p. or g.p. values for spell scrolls AND 2. on page 127 “Each scroll is written in its own magical cypher, so to understand what sort of scroll has been found the ability to read magic must be available.” Curiously the PHB implies that only M-U needs the spell. C, D, P, I & T can all read the appropriate scroll type as per their class descriptions. That’s worth another discussion – all M-U have Read Magic in their first spell book and the only profession that exclusively uses Magic needs a spell but all the other part-timers don’t? The case can be made that Read Magic should be a class ability, wouldn’t you say?
Let’s consider this situation – Chuq and Perret found a Wand of Fear and the command word in Waterman’s chest while the Boys occupy the punters on the dock. A melee ensues on the dock so Chuq and Perret get away with Aardman and stuff without being challenged. Chuq tosses the Wand at Ashton while moving to backstab. Ashton successfully uses the Wand so we all get away. Why should Ashton only get the x.p award? Sure he used the item in combat (which you could reward as defeated monsters) but without Chuq and Perrett sneaking into the office (lair) then subduing Aardman and searching the chest or the other Starchie Boys staging the ruse then occupying the punters in combat he would have never had the wand or the chance to use it. Once we leave with it, it is TREASURE TAKEN. The lower x.p. reward is offset by future use of the wand to defeat monsters and find more treasure!
Okay, Ray — the bits about magic item experience, I’m on board for already (see my last comment above; although I am happy you found the bit about scrolls since that means I didn’t completely imagine the rule). Regarding Read Magic, I don’t see a problem — Thieves need to make a roll to successfully use a magic item, the divine classes simply need their deity’s favor, and illusionists (per the PHB) have a secret — but non-magical — language for spells.
Oops, was drafting this long rant while you had posted your response. Wouldn’t have bothered if I knew….I learned a lot during this discussion, thanks for listening.
Was really just speculating about Read Magic since the bulb had turned on while I was researching.
I can fix Chuq’s x.p. when you tell us the reward for the quickling treasure.
BTW, I think your decision to allow future selling for additional x.p. is generous – thanks!
Let’s see — it was a full-house for the Quickling battle, so everything should be divided by 7.5 (7 party; Brice). Here is the treasure:
1. Silver: 2,506
2. Mystery Coin (worth 2GP ea.): 973
3. 800XP for mystery potion
2. 7,000XP for the Instant Fortress
John – is that 973×2 = 1946GP for the mystery coins?
Yes — I’m not saying it’s electrum, but …
FYI Boys – ((2506/20)+(973*2)+800+7000)/7.5 = 1,316 x.p. from Treasure (658 x.p. for Brice)
Correction – there are 6 PCs not 7
Here is the correct math:
((2506/20)+(973*2)+800+7000)/6.5 = 1,519 x.p. from Treasure
(760 for Brice)